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BJ8 clutch activation problem

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HBJ83341 Avatar
HBJ83341 Warren Voth
El Cajon, CA, USA   USA
Thanks for answering my post Barry,

You're right. Curious is an understatement. I have been all over the internet with this... And no one else has experienced this problem?...That seems odd in itself...I am focusing on the slave push rod, which is not part of a replacement slave cylinder. This is unique in itself. Master cylinders come with a new push rod. Why not the slave? It's possible that the smallest change in manufacturing slave cylinders could make a change in the push rod necessary. I'm also focusing on the release bearing fork. Moss lists a rebuild kit #330 405 that includes shaft, bushings and pin. These parts are, in the case of my car, fifty years old. The new slave cylinder arrives today.

I feel I'm closing in on the problem...I hope...

Thanks for your thoughts...

Warren

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HBJ83341 Avatar
HBJ83341 Warren Voth
El Cajon, CA, USA   USA
Hi Peter,

Petal...Pedel...so much for spell check. They're both words.

My car is going up on a lift today...tomorrow at the latest. Check out my previous post for today. The slave shaft may be the problem as it is separate from the slave. I am also checking the release fork to see if it is ready for a rebuild kit...

We'll see...

Warren

HBJ83341 Avatar
HBJ83341 Warren Voth
El Cajon, CA, USA   USA
Thanks for your reply Barry,
And thanks to all who have entered the 3000 Forum, trying to solve this problem with me...

Have just replaced the slave cylinder for the second time, as well as the push rod, clevis and keeper...all to no avail.

At this point, everything hydraulic that can be replaced has been done so twice. Everything is free of jamming or mechanical blockage...The problem is still there. The clutch disc seems fine...There's no slip, squeal, or any other sound or feel that I can sense. The release bearing is firm, feels like it separates cleanly, is silent, and seems in good working order. A guess is there's something amiss with the clutch cover, what ever that might be What I feel in the master cylinder petal could be telescoping to the petal through the compressed hydraulic fluid, from the source of the problem..

I have always been able to get the clutch to work... sometimes with extra effort as I have mentioned.

It is possible that replacing the clutch hydraulics and the clutch malfunctioning are two separate events, not one as I have thought.... Beyond what I have done, I have no concrete idea.

It looks as the transmission will have to be pulled to see what is going on. There seems to be no other solution... It may be a while for that to happen. I will keep this thread open and post what ever is found...

Again, thanks all for your time and suggestions..

Warren

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HBJ83341 Avatar
HBJ83341 Warren Voth
El Cajon, CA, USA   USA
Thanks for your thoughts Barry

As well as everyone who has followed my post on the 3000 Forum...


Have just replaced the slave cylinder for the second time, as well as the push rod, clevis and keeper...all to no avail.

At this point, everything hydraulic that can be replaced has been done so twice. Everything is free of jamming or mechanical blockage...The problem is still there. The clutch disc seems fine...There's no slip, squeal, or any other sound or feel that I can sense. The release bearing is firm, feels like it separates cleanly, is silent, and seems in good working order. A guess is there's something amiss with the clutch cover, what ever that might be. What I feel in the master cylinder petal could be telescoping to the petal through the compressed hydraulic fluid, from the source of the problem..

I have always been able to get the clutch to work... sometimes with extra effort as I have mentioned.

It is possible that replacing the clutch hydraulics and the clutch malfunctioning are two separate events, not one as I have thought.... Beyond what I have done, I have no concrete idea.

It looks as the transmission will have to be pulled to see what is going on. There seems to be no other solution... It may be a while for that to happen. I will keep this thread open and post what ever is found...

Again, thanks all for your time and suggestions..

Warren

HBJ83341 Avatar
HBJ83341 Warren Voth
El Cajon, CA, USA   USA
Thanks for your thoughts Barry

And to all who answered my call for help on the 3000Forum


Have just replaced the slave cylinder for the second time, as well as the push rod, clevis and keeper...all to no avail.

At this point, everything hydraulic that can be replaced has been done so twice. Everything is free of jamming or mechanical blockage...The problem is still there. The clutch disc seems fine...There's no slip, squeal, or any other sound or feel that I can sense. The release bearing is firm, feels like it separates cleanly, is silent, and seems in good working order. A guess is there's something amiss with the clutch cover, what ever that might be. What I feel in the master cylinder petal could be telescoping to the petal through the compressed hydraulic fluid, from the source of the problem..

I have always been able to get the clutch to work... sometimes with extra effort as I have mentioned.

It is possible that replacing the clutch hydraulics and the clutch malfunctioning are two separate events, not one as I have thought.... Beyond what I have done, I have no concrete idea.

It looks as the transmission will have to be pulled to see what is going on. There seems to be no other solution... It may be a while for that to happen. I will keep this thread open and post what ever is found...

Again, thanks all for your time and suggestions..

Warren
vothstir@aol.com

Warren

HotRod416 Barry K
Oconomowoc, WI, USA   USA
Before you pull the trans try to unbolt the slave cylinder from the bell housing and find a way to put a rubber or compressible ball (tennis ball) onto the end of the slave cylinder. Operate the clutch and see if the condition persists. If it doesn't present itself, the problem isn't the clutch components but somewhere up stream, so save yourself pulling the trans. I honestly can't think of a way to partially block the slave cylinder so it doesn't just blow the piston out of the cylinder but that might be the least of your worries.

Barry

HBJ83341 Avatar
HBJ83341 Warren Voth
El Cajon, CA, USA   USA
Thanks for your thoughts, Barry...
And all on the 3 3000 Forum who who have tried to help solve my clutch problem


Have just replaced the slave cylinder for the second time, as well as the push rod, clevis and keeper...all to no avail.

At this point, everything hydraulic that can be replaced has been done so twice. Everything is free of jamming or mechanical blockage...The problem is still there. The clutch disc seems fine...There's no slip, squeal, or any other sound or feel that I can sense. The release bearing is firm, feels like it separates cleanly, is silent, and seems in good working order. A guess is there's something amiss with the clutch cover, what ever that might be. What I feel in the master cylinder petal could be telescoping to the petal through the compressed hydraulic fluid, from the source of the problem..

I have always been able to get the clutch to work... sometimes with extra effort as I have mentioned.

It is possible that replacing the clutch hydraulics and the clutch malfunctioning are two separate events, not one as I have thought.... Beyond what I have done, I have no concrete idea.

It looks as the transmission will have to be pulled to see what is going on. There seems to be no other solution... It may be a while for that to happen. I will keep this thread open and post what ever is found...

Again, thanks all for your time and suggestions..

Warren

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RAC68 Avatar
RAC68 Raymond Carbone
NJ, Jersey Shore, USA   USA
Hi Warren,

I am sorry to hear that the Fork Pivot Pin was not the issue as I would have put money on its movement causing it to misalign occasionally, thereby producing a hard peddle and making the clutch hard to release. Although it is over 50 years old, unless you are terrible at shifting gears and like to rest your foot on the clutch peddle when driving a heck of a lot of miles, I keep thinking that your problem is not old age or ware but something that has mechanically loosened outside of the hydraulics.

Have you pulled the rubber boot off the fork and looked to see if the pivot pin stays in place when pressing the peddle? My memory is not as sharp as it used to be but I seem to remember one end of the pivot pin held in place with a screw (#9 in Peter's diagrams below) passing through the housing and into the pivot. If that is so, it may have fallen or loosened to allow the slave's rod to push it out of line occasionally. Again, look at your frustration as your Red Badge of Courage and think of your feeling once solved. It will make a great story.

All the best,
Ray(64BJ8P1)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-05-18 05:14 PM by RAC68.

petnatcar Avatar
petnatcar Silver Member Peter Carbone
Watertown, NY, USA   USA
Warren,

I'm not sure what the problem is with your clutch but maybe these schematics will help....
somehow.

Good luck,
Peter

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Attachments:
Bell Housing.jpg    59.7 KB
Bell Housing.jpg

Clutch.jpg    38.7 KB
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Slave Cylinder.jpg    33.7 KB
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HBJ83341 Avatar
HBJ83341 Warren Voth
El Cajon, CA, USA   USA
Hi Peter, Raymond, Barry, everyone...

I may never be entirely sure what the relationship might be between replacing the hydraulic slave and master cylinders and my clutch problem, if any.

When the second slave cylinder was replaced with rod, we checked the fork. It is tight, will not wiggle or move from side to side. So as near as we can tell it is good. Having spent lots of time with this problem, this is what I think:

The clutch disc and release bearing act and seem normal. There is no noise, jutter, shutter, shake, or any other sound from either one. They are both are smooth and silent.

I feel the problem is in the clutch cover. This opinion is also Randy Zoller's of Heritage Motorsports, in El Cajon, CA. Even though I have spent hours on the internet, I have found no hint from any of these experts, of my problem. Most, if not all modern clutch covers are diaphragm type, as is the clutch cover on late model BJ8 Healey's like mine..

The problem seems to becoming worse as I drive to try to figure this out. When I depress the clutch petal, as it seems to get heavy but still feels like it is working, the clutch plate seems sometimes not to be retracting and allowing the disc to be free. Which means The gears will clash if I continue. I can turn off the ignition and the problem seems go go away.

I think the problem involves the diaphragm and the plate release. What is strange is I have found no online complaints for these components. And I mean none for any automotive application. I have owned this car since 1967. It had about 4000 miles on it when we purchased it. The clutch disc and release bearings have been replaced twice. The first was 1989. The second was 1999 when the engine was totally rebuilt to high standards.

The clutch cover, pressure plate, plate release are original. Fifty years is a long time. I think the all of the cover, clutch disc, release bearing, etc. mood to be replaced.

As soon as the clutch is fixed, rest assured the results will be attached to this thread...

I want to thank everyone for their concern, help and kind words. It's been a wild ride on this... I'll keep you posted. Perhaps we can learn something from this....we will whether we want to or not...ha, ha...

Thanks to all and best regards,

Warren Voth

RTaillieu Avatar
RTaillieu Rick Taillieu
Leamington, ON, Canada   CAN
Warren,

If your clutch disk, pressure plate and throw-out bearing are original I would be replacing them when you pull the gearbox anyway.
Many years ago I had an MG Midget that had the clutch go on it.
It worked then it didn't.
The clutch disk was so worn that the pressure plate had worn down the edge of the the disk and one of the springs came out.
In my case it fell to the bottom of the bellhousing but it could have easily jammed in the pressure plate and caused symptoms similar to yours.
The only symptom I had was I thought that the clutch was slipping a bit.
There's a lot more to the story but that's not for this forum.



Rick
'64 BJ8 P1

petnatcar Avatar
petnatcar Silver Member Peter Carbone
Watertown, NY, USA   USA
Warren,

I have one more story for you about a clutch problem on a 1967 Jaguar 3.8 S.
It was the only serious problem I had with the car (not counting the solid stream of oil that leaked out)!

One day after backing out of the driveway then moving off I heard a distinct metal popping spring sound and
that was as far as I went. I was dead in the middle of the street in front of my house!

After removing the gearbox I discovered the pivot point of a finger in the older style pressure plate had broken.

There was no noticeable malfunction up to that point but it totally disabled the car and I'm glad I was home
instead of on the highway. (No cell phones back then)

At that time I got a replacement pressure plate that was of the diaphragm type and I would recommend
that option for you. I also put one of these in my 3000.

It seems the later model 3000's had the diaphragm style anyways because it was better.

Once again, good luck,
Peter


Attachments:
Poster Print.jpg    69.3 KB
Poster Print.jpg

RAC68 Avatar
RAC68 Raymond Carbone
NJ, Jersey Shore, USA   USA
Peter,

Very nice looking Jag.

Warren,

I too have changed the pressure plate, clutch disk, and throw-out bearing only once since the car was new in '64. I place all on the shelf in 1988 as there was no issues and little disk ware at the time it was changed. Many seem to feel that the correction of every Healey issue requires a parts replacement under the thought that, since it is apart and old, I might as well replace the unit with new. Although I can't say they are wrong, I find that recent replacements are not as good as originals and, in many cases, original can be cleaned up and renewed with little effort.

A friend who has used his '65 BJ8 as his daily driver for years had just rebuilt his transmission/Overdrive and along with this effort, rebuilt the full clutch system. He has commented that the Healey clutch disk should be able to satisfy 200K miles of use before needing replacing. However, based on the many conditions and issues thak can happen during use, this duration can be shortened and, in my opinion, the clutch system will last as long as it lasts.

When reinstalling after pulling the trans and inspecting for the cause of he problem, I would install a 20 amp slow-blow fuse on the white/green wire leading to the solenoid from the OD Relay box. This would provide some protection for the solenoid and its wiring if for any reason the Pull coil is not shut when entering the Maintain cycle and over-amperage can burn out the solenoid. Some have tried a 20 amp standard Fast-blow and succeeded, however, this may not satisfy as the Pull coil can require 20 amps for a period which would extend past a standard fuse and is more in line with the delayed blow of a Slow-blow.

All the best,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

HBJ83341 Avatar
HBJ83341 Warren Voth
El Cajon, CA, USA   USA
HI Raymond and Peter,

I plan on replacing everything. I can store the old stuff, if it makes sense, for future renovation. I am not above sourcing what I need from Denis Welch, if that makes sense as far as quality. I don't want to do this again.

The biggest problem is scheduling the job with Heritage Motorsports, who is always too busy.

Raymond, the 20 amp fuse is a good idea, and easy enough to do. Diaphragm clutch covers are standard for phase three BJ8's.

I'll keep everyone posted...

Thanks again, for your good wishes...

Warren

petnatcar Avatar
petnatcar Silver Member Peter Carbone
Watertown, NY, USA   USA
Warren,
If it's any consolation I installed a clutch, pressure plate and throw-out bearing from Denis Welch
in my car in 2000 and have never had any issues with it.

Peter

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