The 3000 Forum

My big Healey has been finally restored over a period of 41 years with a number of friends and associates. The engine was stripped and reconned some years ago by a friend who has since passed away. I have no idea if he unleaded the engine. Is there a SIMPLE way of establishing this and if not, and it has been converted, would putting unleaded additives in the petrol do harm?

Regards
Roger



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-22 05:00 AM by Cutrog1.

Hi Roger

I don't know if mine was converted either ( I suspect not) so I use Valvemaster Plus or similar. I also know of people who have had their cylinder heads converted and have still been using additives for years to no ill effect.

cheers

Andy

Hi All,

From what I understand by a few owners that have rebuilt their engines, they have not seen it necessary to have had their engines overtly modified for ethanol blended fuels as the present 10% amount of ethanol in US fuels has not seemed to create any easily surmountable issues. I appreciate the UK's fuel formula may be quite different but from what I remember, the UK's ethanol blend is at 10% as well. Keep in mind that ethanol, over time and at higher concentrations, will attach brass, fiberglass, some SU seals, and does draw water into the fuel system (with obvious issues). However, many I knew in the UK used such products to as Millers VSPE additive with Octane Booster to counter ethanol effects and also regain some of the fuel power lost with an ethanol blend,

When the distribution of ethanol blends was first introduced, many engine builders would suggest a number of modifications but today most have been found to be not as necessary. However, this could easily change if the % of ethanol is increased in the blend offered. For now, I would think about using the additive.and start to worry if and when ethanol raises to 15% or higher in the fuel blend available.

Just my Thoughts,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

Ray, the worst problem with ethanol and fiberglass is that the ethanol will deteriorate the resin used to solidify the fiberglass. It becomes soft and leaks so is NOT good for any place where it is used. It is a time bomb for gas leaks

A simply example of how bad that ethanol is for almost all materials. I don’t know about in the UK but here in the USA do you know when the ethanol is mixed with gasoline? When the gasoline is placed into the transport truck they then dump the appropriate amount of ethanol in the tanker and it mixes in route to the retailer. Over a period of time ethanol would destroy the pipe line and pumps. Why do you think that liquor is sold in glass bottles?

John

Hi All,

John, I understand that all gas additives, including those for Octane are dumped in the truck on-route. This is because the fuel piped from the refineries to local truck distribution stations is generic and each brand adds their package of advertised additives to make them unique.

NJ has had 10% ethanol gas in common distribution for at least the past 30-years. In all that time I have owned and driven my Healey and had no issues with my original Lucas fuel pump, SU HD8s or fuel tank and lines. Yes, I may have been lucky but then so have many other Healey owners I've asked who seem to mirror my experiences. It would be interesting to find someone that could validate the excessive damage you describe to gain a better understanding of the conditions and limitations of good running under this fuel. I do believe the damage you've described can be caused by an ethanol mixed fuel over the common 10% level but much less or not at all at that % or less. I would be concerned if the mixture was pushed higher and 15% is the egregious level often mentioned as the threatened politically pushed next step.

Just my thoughts,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

Hi Ray

In the UK ethanol is currently at 5% but recently it was announced that the standard mix will be 10% by next year (subject to consultation I believe) so a lot of folks including me are getting suitably worried, although from what you say it may not be too bad. I always buy the best premium high octane fuel I can and use a lead replacement for the sake of it and given the annual mileage I do is so low, the cost difference isn't really a factor.

cheers

Andy

I'm a little confused by this post. The first post was about switching to unleaded fuel and then somehow we started talking about ethanol. I believe those are two separate issues. Correct? In California, I think we first took the lead out of the gas and several years later, started to add ethanol.

Yes, I to was confused. 8 was the person who posted the original. Still no answer

Roger, You are right! Your question remains unanswered which I don't like to see. I am not a chemist nor an engineer. For what it's worth my view is:
There is no simple way to ascertain if a head has been converted. It involves machining and replacing the valve seats. I'm not sure you could tell even if you removed the head and examined it. It's a significant bit of machining so surely your friend would have mentioned it.
Apart from the effect on your wallet, I cannot imagine that use of lead replacement additive in a converted head would do any harm. (Andy did cover this.)
Where perhaps you have been answered above is that maybe we worry too much and unnecessarily about using unleaded petrol especially as we tend to do low mileages.
That said, the discussion about ethanol is interesting. I have seen a good article about this from a Shell engineer effectively saying they tested everything and couldn't find any deleterious effects; I may have a copy somewhere. Bearing in mind my disclaimer above, I'm convinced that modern fuels adversely affect the running of our engines when very hot especially at tick-over/ manoeuvering speeds. And I don't quite "get" growing crops to brew up and burn in engines.

Roger,

I'm guessing your friend who rebuilt the engine knew what he was doing and updated the valves and guides.
So don't worry about it anymore.

I rebuilt my head 20 years ago and that was the natural upgrade thing to do among engine builders because they know unleaded gas is here to stay.

Fill it up with 93 and add some Lead Substitute if it'll make you feel better and get out there and drive the car.

You may want to dump in some ZDDP Additive to fortify the hardened surfaces and definitely try some
SpeedTec Octane Booster for a little more kick.

Good luck,
Peter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-26 06:27 PM by petnatcar.

Hi All,

Although I do agree that unleaded and ethanol included fuels are two different things. Keep in mind that unleaded fuels have been around since before I purchased my Healey in 1964 and unleaded AMOCO brand high octane was what I tried to use if I could. Back in the early 1970s my Healey had been my daily driver as well as our family car and I developed a head gasket leak. Pulling the head, all looked perfect and showed no indication of excessive or inappropriate ware from use of unleaded fuels. Based upon my experience in this case, I felt quite positive on the continued use of unleaded AMOCO and its brand additive package.

So, now to answer Rogers question. How can he tell if his engine rebuilder modified his engine for lead-free fuel. Since, as I remember, the most common modification for gaining lead free compatibility was to install new valve-seats, valves, and guides. Since new seats were the main modification, Identifying if this had been done would require internal combustion chamber inspection which means pulling the head or use of a combustion chamber camera. However, in my opinion, this would be a waste of time since, in either case, you would probably follow the same approach to compensate for unleaded fuel use ... if any approach at all.

Now, since today's unleaded fuels now incorporate a % of ethanol, many automotive product providers are again trying to capitalize on the insecurities of classic car owners and promoting concerns for which their Snake Oils fixes or provide compensation for. Yes, Real Lead and products containing ZDDP may supply lost benefits to our engines but other then vendor supplied promotional statements, it is difficult to find independent validation.

Presently, a friend and classic car racing engine builder recommends using an ounce of Marvel Mystery Oil per 5-gallons of fuel and I sometimes follow his recommendation only based on his personal credibility. However, I have yet to find any independent validation nor have I experienced any change in engine operation and I have no intention of tearing my engine apart to look. So, as far as I am concerned, I use a 93 Octane fuel of no more then 10% ethanol, Mobile 1 15W50 Synthetic and, occasionally some Marvel Mystery Oil in my fuel. From my point of view, all else is questionable.

Just my thoughts,
Ray(64BJ8P1)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-24 06:49 PM by RAC68.

Interesting posts... I have a BJ8, and have been using a lead additive, but have since located two gas stations that sell no-ethanol high test. I think that has something to do with the farmers in NW USA needing it for tractors? It's fairly spendy ($4 a gallon!) ... but my Healey sure sings with it!

Hi Steve,

I can easily understand your like for the non-ethanol blended gas as the addition lowers the Octane rating. When new and having raised my compression back then, I used to use at least 110 octane to eliminate pre-ignition. Today, I am lucky if get 93 octane and I can't advance my timeing to the edge for better performance anymore.

Just my thoughts,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

if you drive the car everyday to work or put 12000 to 15000 miles a year on your car they maybe you should worry. you should be more worried if you are not using zddp you will wipe out your flat tappet cams and lifter a lot sooner. bug eye racer